HSCA Record Number Agency File Number 002190 Originator-HSCA From: To: Date: August 29, 1977 Pages: 11 Subjects: Kellerman, Roy Drawing of wounds Medical Evidence JFK autopsy Return of remains to Washington Autopsy X-rays and photos Treatment at Parkland Hospital Skull fragments Limousine Date Released: not on document Contents: Memorandum dated August 29, 1977, on interview by Jim Kelly and Andy Purdy of the HSCA with Roy H. Kellerman on August 24 and 25, 1977. Document follows in full. MEMORANDUM To: Ken Klein From: Jim Kelly and Andy Purdy Date: August 29, 1977 Re: Interview with Roy Kellerman, 8/24/77 and 8/25/77, Holiday Inn North, St. Petersburg, Florida. Mr. Kellerman was interviewed because of his participation in the autopsy of President Kennedy. On the flight from Dallas to Andrews Air Force Base, Mr. Kellerman heard Burkley and Clifton arranging contacts for the autopsy. Kellerman heard that the choice was between Walter Reed and Bethesda and heard them announce that the autopsy would be at the Naval hospital in Bethesda. Prior to landing at Andrews, Kellerman was told by Mr. Behn of the Secret Service that he should stay with the body. Just before the plane was to land, Agent Greer came to the front of the plane and told Mr. Kellerman that Mrs. Kennedy wanted the Secret Service people who had been with the President in the car to help carry the casket off and drive along to the hospital. With the help of a fork lift they managed to put the casket on the ground and then into the hearse. Agent Greer was supposed to drive the hearse because he had driven the Presidential limousine in Dallas, but he discovered that the hearse already had a driver. He told a Lieutenant [end of page one] - 2 - Commander to get out. Just before the car moved out, Kellerman told Admiral Burkley to ride along in the hearse. While they were trying to unload the casket, Jim Rowley of the Secret Service was standing below the plane on the ground when Kellerman told him to come over. Kellerman told Rowley that "...the President's car is on the follow-up plane...have the field office go over the car." Rowley told Kellerman that agents would go with Kellerman to the autopsy. En route to the hospital, Bobby Kennedy said to Kellerman: "...did you hear they caught the fellow who did it." [sic] Kellerman said: "Good." Admiral Burkley was virtually sitting on Kellerman's lap, but Kellerman is not certain that Burkley heard Bobby Kennedy's comment. Prior to the beginning of the autopsy Kellerman recalls that Admiral Burkley or one of the autopsy doctors told him that pictures and X-rays would be taken at the autopsy. Kellerman immediately responded "...I want them all." Kellerman recalls that when Dr. Finck arrived in the autopsy room and began to participate, he asked him what he was doing there (in light of the fact that he was an Army Colonel in a predominantly Navy autopsy). Dr. [end of page two] - 3 - Finck told him that "...we share knowledge..." Mr. Kellerman recalls that at least one X-ray negative was displayed in the autopsy room, as the doctors were trying to determine if they could find any bullet fragments. Kellerman said that the X-ray was of the head and showed a "...whole mass of stars, the only large piece being behind the eye which was given to the FBI agents when it was removed." Kellerman was asked to what extent he knew the nature of the President's wounds from his observations in Parkland Hospital. Kellerman said "I went into the emergency room where the body was. The face was unmarked...I saw no blood in the neck...the shirt and tie were still on." Kellerman said he never noticed the wound in the throat at Parkland and he didn't see the tracheotomy after he was in the emergency room. He said he just took one look. Kellerman said that when he and Hill helped to move the body, Kellerman held the legs and Hill held the shoulders and head area. Kellerman said he "...never had word one with any of the doctors..." in Parkland. As Kellerman was helping to carry the casket out of Parkland Hospital, FBI agent [sic] Richard Johnsen [sic] came up to him and said "...a man gave me a bullet." Kellerman said that apparently this was the only bullet which "...didn't explode..." during the assassination. Therefore, Kellerman knew of the existence of a full bullet when he was [end of page three] - 4 - present at the autopsy during the discussions about where the bullet had gone in the body. Kellerman recalls Dr. Finck trying to probe the back wound. Kellerman was watching from a vantage point right by the body. Kellerman said at this time the other doctors may not have heard the conversation which ensued because Finck was working in the back of the head area and the other doctors were in the front. Kellerman noticed that Finck was having a lot of trouble probing the wound and said to him "...do you know they found a shell in Dallas." [sic] Finck said "no." Kellerman suggested: "...do you suppose that with the cardiac massage they gave him that the bullet came out." Kellerman said this explanation "...solved it for me...until I saw the films." (reference to Zapruder film). [sic] Kellerman didn't say that the X-rays were taken explicitly to find the bullet or bullet path, saying they were "...taken as part of the God damn job." Kellerman said he received a call while in the morgue, from Boring who told him that two pieces of skull were found in the car. Kellerman told him to "...send them on down." Kellerman said that while he didn't know a tracheotomy had been performed in Dallas, he said that it was obvious that one had been when the body was unwrapped [end of page four] - 5 - at the morgue; he said he "...knew the throat had been opened for oxygen." Kellerman said the doctors had "...no problem with the organs." He heard a young corpsman who was examining the organs say "...they are very clean and clear." Kellerman does not recall the doctors lifting the brain out of the head and only recalls one large hole in the head and no small holes in the head. He knew that Hill said there was a hole in the tie but he didn't see it. Kellerman recalls Dr. Finck probing the wound about 4 - 5 inches as he was trying to "...get the probe to come out..." Kellerman said the doctors didn't probe the wound with his finger first, saying it was "not that big." Though he had had the discussion with Boring about the skull fragments, he does not recall them attempting to fit them in. In fact, he remembers one skull fragment being examined at the autopsy. Kellerman said the receipts for items received in the autopsy were "made up" by the Navy. He said he "...signed for the items before taking them from the morgue." Kellerman said he "...signed a typed receipt...no initials." [end of page five] - 6 - He said he did not count the film holders or X-rays; rather, he simply turned them all over to Bouck at the Secret Service. He said Bouck gave him a receipt and never said that he didn't have all the X-rays and photographs he was supposed to have. Kellerman recalls getting the photographs and X-rays in a "...big cardboard box..." but doesn't know from whom he got the box. Kellerman said neither he nor Greer, to the best of his recollection, handled the photographs or X-rays at any time during the autopsy, prior to the time they were put into the cardboard box. In other words, Kellerman does not believe that the FBI agents were the individuals to whom the film holders and X-rays were handed as soon as they were ready (see Stringer memo re [sic] giving film holders to agent immediately upon their exposure). Kellerman said he took the cardboard box with the films and the X-rays from the hospital and went to the White House by ambulance, after the casket had been taken in. Kellerman said he was "...about to forget them when someone said `here's all your film.'" Kellerman said he believed he had copies of the receipts he handled that night. [end of page six] - 7 - Kellerman said he had "...no reason not to think he had everything..." when he took the cardboard box with the films and X-rays. When asked why the Secret Service wanted this material he said "...the point is, he was our man, everything belonged in the White House." Kellerman noted that the photographs were not developed before he took them. Kellerman was shown the receipt he had signed from the photographs which had his name typed in with the notation that it had been signed. In this receipt there are no numbers crossed out or changes evidence. Kellerman said that to the best of his recollection the receipt he actually had signed had "...no numbers crossed out." Kellerman said he "...wouldn't comment on the amended version of the receipt." (See interview segment which occurred the next day when he brought in the receipt he has). [sic] Before the body was put in the casket, Kellerman went to get Hill saying "...I want you to see this before leaving." Kellerman said he "pointed out the wounds to Hill." Kellerman said that on the day after the autopsy he looked at the Presidential limousine. Kellerman recalled that when he was in the car just moments after the shots there was "...a splattering of metal around me." Kellerman said there had to be "...four or five metal fragments in [end of page seven] - 8 - the car." At 9:30 A.M. the following morning, 8/25/75 [sic], Mr. Kellerman returned for a follow-up interview at the same location. Mr. Kellerman brought a copy of the receipt for the photographs. This receipt includes the changes made and initialed by Captain Stover. Mr. Kellerman was not sure where he got his copies or where he got the corrected version of the receipt which had his name typed in. Mr. Kellerman had only the corrected version of the receipt for the X-rays which had his name typed in. He didn't have the one with his signature on it. Mr. Kellerman said he has "...no conversation [sic] concerning the fact that some of the film holders had no film in them." He said he "...never learned about it...and had no conversation with Stringer about it." Mr. Kellerman believes that he "...signed the receipts after the changes were made." Mr. Kellerman said that prior to signing the receipts "...everyone counted them...I think I even counted them. ...I would think so." (Note: the day before Mr. Kellerman said he never counted the films and X-rays.) [sic] Mr. Kellerman also had a receipt dated 12-2-63 which was for the transmittal of the windshield to the archives. This was signed by Marion Johnson. Mr. Kellerman reiterated that he had no recollection of changes being made in the [a long word or short phrase here has been accidently blocked out by the National Archives reproduction symbol] He said he was never [end of page eight] - 9 - called to the Archives to examine or identify the receipts or any other material. Kellerman said it was "possible" that Greer was the person who told him not to forget his film when he arrived at the White House after the autopsy. [end of page nine] [page ten -- unnumbered] THIS PAGE CONTAINS A DRAWING OF THE REAR OF THE PRESIDENT'S BODY FROM JUST BELOW THE SHOULDERS UP. THIS PAGE IS DATED "8/24/77" AND SIGNED BY KELLERMAN -- "ST. PETERSBURG, FLORIDA" -- AND "WITNESSED BY" D. A. PURDY, JR. AND JAMES P. KELLY. THE DRAWING IS "CARTOONISH" HAVING BEEN DRAWN FREE-HAND. IT SHOWS THE BACK WOUND AT ABOUT A POINT EQUIVALENT TO THE SECOND THORACIC VERTEBRA (APPROXIMATELY THE SAME SPOT ON THE FACE SHEET IN CE-397). THERE IS A SMALL HOLE JUST TO THE RIGHT OF MID-LINE OF THE HEAD, ROUGHLY LEVEL WITH A LINE THAT WOULD CONNECT THE TWO EARLOBES. ON THE LEFT SIDE OF THE MID-LINE OF THE HEAD, JUST ABOVE THE LEVEL OF THE TOP OF THE EARS IS A LARGER HOLE, ROUGHLY THE SIZE OF AN EAR. [end of page ten and end of document] HSCA Record Number 180-10104-10248 Agency File Number 013394 Originator-HSCA From: Kellerman, Roy H. To: Date: 12/01/78 Pages: 3 Subjects: Kellerman, Roy Wounds and injuries Medical Evidence JFK autopsy Wound ballistics Return of remains to Washington Treatment at Parkland Hospital Date Released: not on document Contents: Outside Contact Report (in long hand) by Mark Flanagan on phone interview with Roy H. Kellerman. Document follows in full. OUTSIDE CONTACT REPORT DATE 12-1-78 TIME 3:00 I. Identifying Information: NAME Roy H. Kellerman TELEPHONE (813) 527-6327 ADDRESS St. Petersburg, Florida TYPE OF CONTACT: X Telephone Person II. Summary of Contact: Called to ask Kellerman about his recollection of the head wound to the President -- wanted to know what he saw at Bethesda as compared to Parkland -- Kellerman stated that Parkland did not measure the wound & did not attempt to ascertain its precise dimensions -- Bethesda did & Bethesda is accurate. Also said that no one had the chance to alter or did alter the body in transit from Dallas. III. Recommended Follow-up (if any): [blank] /s/ Mark Flanagan [end of document]