Subject: Re: Student looking for info from a JFK Professor
Date: 1 Jan 1999 11:06:05 -0600
From: droberdeau@aol.com (DRoberdeau)
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Newsgroups: alt.assassination.jfk

(((post and email)))

blackburst@aol.com (Blackburst) on 12.22.98 2.56.p wrote:
>
>Droberdeau wrote:
>>Has it ever been determined excactly what Z.# GREER actually accelerated
>>the limousine ? I find it very hard to believe that he, with the training
>>that he surely received, practiced, and demonstrated to superiors to
>>achieve his position of responsability, seemed to react so slow...seems to
>>me, at the very least, he should have been instinctively zig zagging
>>and/or accelerating out of the killing zone at the sound of Govenor
>>CONNALLY yelling, which from what I have read, was in the Z.240's to
>>250's, at least 2.9 to 4.0 seconds before Z.312.
>>
>
>I understand what you're saying, but keep in mind something I realized
>quite some time ago: When you look at the Z film in slow motion, events
>seem to take an eternity. But in real time, delays of a second or two are
>not necessarily suspicious. I imagine Greer was haunted by those few
>seconds delay until he died, for it WOULD have saved JFK's life. He turned
>back to look when he should have been hitting the gas.
>
>oo
>Dave

Good Day Dave,

Thank You for the recommendation.

>From reading an interview with GREER's son, GREER died with no regrets
about his actions within the Plaza. In reading his testimony, there seems
to be some support for a pre Z313 shot (say around Z.280)...from my notes
about GREER :

.........GREER testified before the WC that as they made the turn:  "I was
watching the overpass expressway--the overpass, or what was ahead of me.
I always look at any--where I go underneath anything, I always watch
above, so if there is anyone up there that I can move so that I won't go
over the top of anyone, if they are unidentified to me, unless it is a
policeman or something like that. We try to avoid going under them."

When asked if he noticed anyone on the triple overpass GREER said, “Not
that I can now remember.”

***and yet, we know that, there were several railroad workers on the
triple overpass along with police officers....GREER was apparently not
doing his job, with respect to observing the surroundings, 100%, at this
point***

GREER further testified to the WC, "Well, when we were going down Elm
Street, I heard a noise that I thought was a backfire of one of the
motorcycle policemen.  And I didn't--it did not affect me like anything
else. I just thought that it is what it was. We had had so many
motorcycles around us. So I heard this noise. And I thought that is what
it was. And then I heard it again.  And I glanced over my shoulder. And I
saw Governor Connally like he was starting to fall. Then I realized there
was something wrong. I tramped on the accelerator, and at the same time
Mr. Kellerman said to me, "Get out of here fast." And I cannot remember
even the other shots or noises that was. I cannot quite remember any more.
I did not see anything happen behind me any more, because I was occupied
with getting away.”....”I knew that after I heard the second one (noise),
that is when I looked over my shoulder, and I was conscious that there was
something wrong, because that is when I saw Governor Connally. And when I
turned around again, to the best of my recollection there was another one,
right immediately after. ....The last two seemed to be just
simultaneously, one behind the other, but I don't recollect just how much,
how many seconds were between the two. I couldn't really say. ....and
"Just as soon as I turned my head back from the second shot, right away I
accelerated right then. It was a matter of my reflexes to the
accelerator."

.....11.22.63@12:29:55.13 = Z-frame-223---limousine begins to slow down;
calculations have shown that the Presidential limosine, driven by GREER,
slowed from 12 mph, at this point, to 8 mph, at the time of the fatal head
shot.

*** in my estimation, to slow down 3 to 4 m.p.h. in 4.87 seconds< GREER
simply HAD to have (taken?) his foot off of the limo’s gas pedal, and/or
applied pressure to the the brake pedal ***

.....11.22.63@12:29:57.00 = Z-frame-257---KELLERMAN starts turning to his
left just before hearing the two more shots. It is here that KELLERMAN
starts to say to GREER, "Let's get out of here; we are hit !!!!"

*** GREER does not immediately speed up ***

.....11.22.63@12:29:57.05 = Z-frame-258--- GREER starts turning to his
right for the first time to view JFK; the limo swerves to the right as a
reaction to his turn.

.....11.22.63@12:29:57.98= Z-frame-276---GREER completes his first turn to
the right and seems to be looking at the President.

11.22.63@12:29:58.23 = Z-frame-280---JFK is still leaning forward and to
his left into JACKIE looking downward.

GREER is looking steadily at JFK

.....(relavent to evidence of a Z.285 shot from the "Daltex"
building).....But as he tried to track the President through the
crosshairs, the would-be Daltex killer discovered Murphy's law at work in
the form of Secret Service agents READY and LANDIS, standing on the right
running board of the followup car. His view of the President was
completely blocked! The frustrated gunman would finally have gotten a
glimpse of the President when the limo driver, GREER inadvertently swerved
the limo to the right, as he spun around to look over his shoulder. This
is apparent in just before Z-285. The Dal-Tex shooter didn't hesitate; as
he briefly glimpsed the President's head, he snapped off a rushed shot,
which passed just above and probably to the right of his target, finally
striking the Main Street pavement near TAGUE, standing on the sidewalk
between Main and Commerce streets. The bullet, coming in on an extremely
flat trajectory (less than two degrees relative to the street), probably
shattered into a multitude of pieces and spattered debris in several
directions. One larger fragment hit the curb, causing the visible lead
smear, and a tiny piece of debris hit TAGUE's right cheek.

.....11.22.63@12:29:58.52 = Z-frame-285---GREER feels a supersonic bullet
from that direction, and especially one that missed would generate a shock
wave that would certainly have been felt on his face. This was the
"concussion" he reported. The slight sting of such a force, combined with
it's ear-shattering noise would certainly be more than enough to provoke
the panic reaction we see in the film.

 It has been suggested that Greer might have simply gotten confused and
was thinking of the explosive Z312-313 shot when he described feeling it's
"concussion". But he seems to have eliminated that possibility when he
described his uncertainty about, "when it hit something or not".
Certainly, after the terrible explosion at Z313 he would have had no
doubts at all about whether that bullet had found it's target. But as it
turned out, the Z285 bullet missed the President and found another victim
more than 200 feet away. That man's name was JAMES TAGUE.

11.22.63@12:29:58.69 = Z-frame-288---BREHM and his son are still looking
at JFK and BREHM is still applauding, unaware that the President was
wounded much earlier.

11.22.63@12:29:58.80 = Z-frame-290---JACKIE realizes that her husband was
silent, and she turned quickly back "to the right" towards JFK and leans
in towards his body very close in a ducking motion from the missed
bullet’s bow shockwave.. JACKIE has grabbed his left elbow with both her
hands with her right hand over his left elbow and her left hand below his
left elbow.

>From this point on, she seems to be looking downward more and more and
closer and closer to JFK, as JFK leans down and toward her.  She then
said, that her husband was silent, and she turned to her right, toward
him.

11.22.63@12:29:58.91 = Z-frame-292---GREER starts turning back to his
left, again, away from JFK.

.....11.22.63@12:29:59.36 = Z-frame300---the limo is still slowing down.
As Dr.  Alvarez and other researchers have determined, by analyzing the
speed of the limousine from frame to frame, the limo was in a substantial
slowdown. This tells us that after Greer turned back to the front, he
panicked and hit the brake, although he doesn't hold it down long enough
to bring the heavy limousine to a full stop. It is also terribly
significant that Greer began his panic turn, within a sixth of a second of
three other limo passengers ducking.  They were Mrs. Connally, Mrs.
Kennedy, and SA Roy Kellerman. His turn also began within the same sixth
of a second in which Abraham Zapruder blurred the first in a series of
three frames, in precise 1/3 second increments, exactly as we see in the
frames following the known shot at Z312. Like almost everyone else who
heard the shots, GREER confirmed that the shooting sequence ended with a
flurry of closely spaced reports.

.....Critical excerpts from Greer's 3/9/64 Warren Commission testimony
before
Arlen Specter:
Mr. Specter.
     Were you able to see anything of President Kennedy as you glanced to
the
rear?
Mr. Greer.
     No, sir; I didn't see anything of the President, I didn't look, I
wasn't
far enough around to see the President.
Mr. Specter.
     When you started that glance, are you able to recollect whether you
started to glance before, exactly simultaneously with or
after that second shot?
Mr. Greer.
     It was almost simultaneously that he had--something had hit, you know,
when I had seen him. It seemed like in the same
second almost that something had hit, you know, whenever I turned around. I
saw
him start to fall.
Mr. Specter.
     Did you step on the accelerator before, simultaneously or after Mr.
Kellerman instructed you to accelerate?
Mr. Greer.
     It was about simultaneously.
Mr. Specter.
     So that it was your reaction to accelerate prior to the time--
Mr. Greer.
     Yes, sir.
Mr. Specter.
     You had gotten that instruction?
Mr. Greer.
     Yes, sir; it was my reaction that caused me to accelerate.
Mr. Specter.
     Do you recollect whether you accelerated before or at the same time or
after the third shot?
Mr. Greer.
     I couldn't really say. Just as soon as I turned my head back from the
second shot, right away I accelerated right then. It was
a matter of my reflexes to the accelerator.
Mr. Specter.
     Was it at about that time that you heard the third shot?
Mr. Greer.
     Yes, sir; just as soon as I turned my head…
Mr. Specter.
     To the best of your current recollection, did you notice that the
President had been hit?
Mr. Greer.
     No, sir; I didn't know how badly he was injured or anything other than
that. I didn't know.
Mr. Specter.
     Did you know at all, from the glance which you have described that he
had
been hit or injured in any way?
Mr. Greer.
     I knew he was injured in some way, but I didn't know how bad or what.
Mr. Specter.
     How did you know that?
Mr. Greer.
     If I remember now, I just don't remember how I knew, but I knew we were
in
trouble. I knew that he was injured, but I can't remember, recollect, just
how
I knew there were injuries in there. I didn't know who all was hurt, even.
Mr. Specter.
     Are you able to recollect whether you saw the President after the shots
as
you were proceeding toward Parkland Hospital?
Mr. Greer.
     No; I don't remember ever seeing him any more until I got to the
hospital,
and he was lying across the seat, you know, and that is the first I had seen
of
him.
Mr. Specter.
     Your best recollection is, then, that you had the impression he was
injured but you couldn't ascertain the source of that information?
Mr. Greer.
     Right. I couldn't ascertain the source.

Warren Commission finding:  "The driver, Special Agent William R. Greer,
has testified that he accelerated the car after what was probably the
second shot...The Presidential car did not stop or almost come to a
complete halt after the firing of the first shot or any other shots."(WC
Report, page 641)

11/19/64 interview with "Death of a President" author William Manchester
[RIF#180-10116-10119]---"After the second shot I glanced back. I saw blood
on the Governor's white shirt, and I knew we were in trouble. The blood
was coming out of his right breast. When I heard the first shot, I had
thought it was a backfire. I was tramping on the accelerator and at the
same time Roy was saying, let's get out of here fast."

CLINT HILL also hears Kellerman say to GREER, "To the nearest hospital,
quick.

But remember what Roy Kellerman said: "Greer then looked in the back of
the car. Maybe he didn't believe me"("The Death of a President" by William
Manchester, p.160).

2/28/78 HSCA interview [RIF#180-10099-10491]---"The first shot sounded to
him like a backfire. He did not react to it. After the second shot he
turned to his right and saw blood on Governor Connally's shirt. At the
same moment he heard Kellerman say "We're hit. Let's get out of here," or
words to that effect. He said he immediately accelerated and followed the
pilot car to Parkland Hospital [However, DNC Advance man Jack Puterbaugh,
who rode in the pilot car, said they "pulled over and let the motorcade
pass" (HSCA interview 4/14/78). The Washington Post from 2/28/85 reported
Greer as saying that "I just looked straight ahead at the car in which the
police chief was leading our way to the hospital"---this is the lead car.
Nevertheless, the Daniel film and still photos depict the limousine AHEAD
of the lead car, as it appear it was the lead motorcyclists who actually
guided Greer to Parkland! (see pp. 21-22 and 59 of "The Third Alternative"
by the author)]

11.22.63@12:29:59.41 = Z-frame-301---GREER starts turning very, VERY
quickly back again to his right to look at JFK

11.22.63@12:29:59.63 = Z-frame-305---KELLERMAN’s head is back upright
again.

11.22.63@12:29:59.69 = Z-frame-306---GREER is now turned again to his
right, looking steadily at JFK.

11.22.63@12:30:00 = Z-frame-313---GREER is looking at JFK during the fatal
head
shot”

.....(about post Z.313 head shot)...........Other blood and tissue are
blown towards KELLERMAN & GREER (KELLERMAN’s coat had some on it, as well
as the front seats cockpit area). Blood and tissue are blown to the front
and rear so rapidly that the human eye cannot detect their movement.

.....We have matter blown forward onto the back of William R. Greer. Fred
Newcomb interview with William R. Greer, cited in Murder From Within,
p.139)

.....(about the limo windshield).....However, there does seem to be one
apparent discrepancy which is disturbing. When the windshield was
photographed for the HSCA, it appears that there is a massive stain on the
driver's side which does not appear in CE 350 (Figure 11). However, it is
possible that this area was just out of frame on the photo of CE 350.
Moreover, it is not clear that the stain seen in the HSCA photo has to be
blood. I suppose that it could have been some other liquid which dripped
onto the windshield while it was in storage at the National Archives.
Maybe someone spilled coffee on it. You would think that in this age of
sophisticated blood analysis that someone could determine if it is blood,
and perhaps whose. We might also need Dr. Henry Lee to do a blood spatter
analysis. Many of the blood spots are consistent with either JFK's or
Connally's wounds, but sometimes it looks to me as though the massive
stain was caused by someone pouring liquid from a cup. It might also tell
us something important, such as from which angles the splatter could have
come, or which angles could be ruled out by the possibility that GREER's
head would block such a path from a particular wound.

.....11.22.63@12:30:__---KELLERMAN says to GREER, "twelve-thirty”"

.....11.22.63@12:3_---speeding to Parkland, GREER maneuvers the limo
alongside one or two motorcycle men and calls to them, "get to a hospital
fast", and "hospital". There is no communication between the limo and
Parkland on the way.

.....( GREER was one of the men who helps lift JFK onto stretcher and
carry him in ).

.....11.22.63@12:__---GREER testifies to the WC, "When he (JFK) was in the
emergency room and I was there, I did see his chest expand and move, the
movement of the chest a time or so."

.....11.22.63@__:__---From GREER’s WC testimony: "After they had made the
President's body ready for removal, I was in the emergency room, and a
nurse got two shopping bags and I held them and she put the President's
suit, his belongings into the two bags including his shoes and socks, and
his pants and jacket which they had torn and the shirt they had torn, they
had torn it to take it off him, and the nurse put these into the two bags
and I got custody of them right then from the nurse at the emergency
room."

.....Mary Gallagher reported in her book: "She (JACKIE) mentioned one
Secret Service man who had not acted during the crucial moment, and said
bitterly to me, 'He might just as well have been Miss Shaw!'" ["My Life
With Jacqueline Kennedy" by Mary Barelli Gallagher (1969), p. 342---Secret
Service Agent Marty Venker and Jackie biographer C. David Heymann confirm
that this unnamed agent was indeed Greer ("Confessions of an Ex-Secret
Service Agent", p. 25; "A Woman Called Jackie", p. 401)] Jackie also told
Gallagher that "You should get yourself a good driver so that nothing ever
happens to you" [Ibid., p. 351]
 * William Manchester, who interviewed Greer, tells us what the driver
told Jackie on 11/22/63 at Parkland Hospital: "Oh, Mrs. Kennedy, oh my
God, oh my God. I didn't mean to do it[?!?!], I didn't hear[who,
Kellerman?], I should have swerved the car[how about hitting the gas!], I
couldn't help it[!]. Oh, Mrs. Kennedy, as soon as I saw it[?] I swerved.
If only I'd seen it in time!  Oh!" (Manchester, p.290). 59 witnesses (10
police officers, 7 Secret Service agents, 37 spectators, 2 Presidential
aides, 1 Senator, Governor Connally, and Jackie Kennedy) and the Zapruder
film document Secret Service agent William R.  Greer's deceleration of the
presidential limousine, as well as his two seperate looks back at JFK
during the assassination (Greer denied all of this to the Warren
Commission-2HGREER[see his entire testimony]). By decelerating from an
already slow 11.2 mph, Greer greatly endangered the President's life, and,
as even Gerald Posner admitted, Greer contributed greatly to the success
of the assassination. When we consider that Greer disobeyed a direct order
from his superior, Roy Kellerman, to get out of line BEFORE the fatal shot
struck the President's head, it is hard to give Agent Greer the benefit of
the doubt. As ASAIC Roy H. Kellerman said: "Greer then looked in the back
of the car. Maybe he didn't believe me"("The Death of a President" by
William Manchester, p.160). Clearly, Greer was responsible, at fault, and
felt remorse.  In short, Greer had survivor's guilt.

 But, then, stories and feelings changed.

Agent Greer to the FBI 11/22/63:  "Greer stated that he first heard what
he thought was possibly a motorcycle backfire and glanced around and
noticed that the President had evidently been hit [notice that, early on,
Greer admits seeing JFK, which the Zapruder proves he did two times before
the fatsal head shot occurred]. He thereafter got on the radio and
communicated with the other vehicles, stating that they desired to get the
President to the hospital immediately [in reality, Greer did not talk on
the radio, and Greer went on to deny ever saying this during his WC
testimony]… Greer stated that they (the Secret Service) have always been
instructed to keep the motorcade moving at a considerable speed inasmuch
as a moving car offers a much more difficult target than a vehicle
traveling at a very slow speed.  He pointed out that on numerous occasions
he has attempted to keep the car moving at a rather fast rate, but in view
of the President's popularity and desire to maintain close liaison with
the people, he has, on occasion, been instructed by the President to "slow
down".  Greer stated that he has been asking himself if there was any
thing he could have done to have avoided this incident, but stated that
things happened so fast that he could not account for full developments in
this matter(!) [the "JFK-as-scapegoat" theme…and so much for Greer's
remorse from earlier the same day!]."(Sibert & O'Neil Report, 11/22/63)

Agent Greer to the FBI 11/27/63:  "…he heard a noise which sounded like a
motorcycle backfire. On hearing this noise he glanced to his right toward
Kellerman and out of the corner of his eye noticed that the Governor
appeared to be falling toward his wife [notice that Greer now mentions
nothing about seing JFK hit---he does the same thing in his undated report
in the WC volumes (18 H 723)] He thereafter recalls hearing some type of
outcry after which Kellerman said, "Let's get out of here." He further
related that at the time of hearing the sound he was starting down an
incline which passes beneath a railroad crossing and after passing under
this viaduct, he closed in on the lead car and yelled to the occupants and
a nearby police motorcyclist, "Hospital, Hospital! [nothing about using
the radio this time out]" Thereafter follows a complete physical
description of Greer, as if the FBI agents considered him a suspect, inc.
age, height, and color of eyes! (Sibert & O'Neil Report, 11/29/63)

>From a 9/17/91 interview with GREER’s son Richard:

 When asked, "What did your father think of JFK," Richard did not respond
the first time.  When this author asked him a second time, he responded:
"Well, we're Methodists..and JFK was Catholic..."  (Bill Greer was born
and raised in County Tyrone, Ireland; 2 H 112 - 113)

 "My father certainly didn't blame himself; it's not one of those things -
if only I was driving one mile per hour faster

"My father had absolutely no survivor's guilt...he figured that events
were kind out of their control... it was pretty common knowledge that a
person riding in an open car was subject to a bullet at any time..." ***

.....GREER passed away from cancer on 2.23.85.