Record Number 180-10089-10178 Agency File Number 000661 Originator-HSCA From: Robinson, Thomas Evan To: Purdy, Andy Date: 1/12/77 Pages: 13 Subjects: Kennedy, John, Autopsy Evidence, Medical Robinson, Thomas Evan Gawler's Release date: 10/26/93 Contents: Blank letterhead letter from Robert Dietrich to Rep. Thomas Downing of the HSCA, dated January 6, 1977 and transcript of interview of January 12, 1977 by Andy Purdy and Jim Conzelman with Thomas Evan Robinson of Gawler's Funeral Home. Documents follow in full. Jan. 6. 1977 Rep Thomas Downing Washington, D. C. I sincerely urge you to continue the committee to inquire into the Kennedy and King assassinations. As I wrote you in an earlier letter, I contacted the F.B.I. on Nov. 27, 1963 and was supposed to meet with them again on Nov. 29, 1977. I did not show at that meeting, and that was the biggest goof of my life. I am sure much could have been learned if I would have attended that meeting. I still do not think it is to late to investigate, and I am sure that this Monroe man had something to do at least with the Kennedy assassination, until I die or until the truth comes out. Sincerely, /s/ Robert Dietrich 845 Westwood Dr. Monroe, Mich. 48161 CC: Rep. Thomas Downing Chief Counsel Richard Sprague [end of letter] INTERVIEW, January 12, 1977, THOMAS EVAN ROBINSON Interviewed by Andy Purdy and Jim Conzelman Purdy: Please state your name and occupation and home address. Robinson: My name is Thomas Evan Robinson. I live at 1320 Ballencray Lane, McLean, Virginia. I've been a funeral director most of my life. Purdy: And you are aware that the tape recorder is running and we're with the Select Committee on Assassinations staff and it's with your permission that we are taping you now? Robinson: Yes. Purdy: We've just gone through the backgrounds of when you were present at the autopsy prior to beginning your work. Could you please detail for us your recollection of events and what you saw once you began your work. Robinson: Once I began the work? I remember the tracheotomy; I remember the bones of the skull and face badly shattered. Purdy: Where on the face were they shattered, which of the bones? Robinson: You cannot see that from the outside. This is looking through the back of the opening that the physicians had made at the back of the skull. Purdy: How big was that opening? Was it an official opening? Robinson: Well, there, of course, was an opening from the bullets, but then they had enlarged that. The brain had been removed, and you could see it. Purdy: Could you tell how large the opening had been caused by the bullets. Robinson: Not really, well, I guess I can because a good bit of the bone had been blown away. There was nothing there to piece together, so I would say probably about (the size of) a small orange. Purdy: Could you give us an estimate of inches and the nature of the shape? Robinson: Three. Purdy: And the shape? Robinson: Circular. [end of page one] Robinson: page 2 Purdy: Was it fairly smooth of fairly ragged? Robinson: Ragged. Purdy: Approximately where was this wound located? Robinson: Directly behind the back of his head. Purdy: Approximately between the ears or higher up? Robinson: No, I would say pretty much between them. Purdy: You saw the head wounds. Could you describe the nature of the throat wound, you just said you saw the tracheotomy. Robinson: Well, it was a tracheotomy, it was sort of nasty-looking. Purdy: Was it approximately in the center of the neck, or was it to either side? Robinson: No, it was right in the middle. Purdy: Was it an unusual shape for a tracheotomy or did it look to you like a normal tracheotomy? Robinson: Well, it was sort of angular on one side, I remember that. Purdy: Do you know which side? Robinson: No, I don't. Purdy: Did you notice anything else unusual about the body which may have been artificially caused, that is, caused by something other than the autopsy? Robinson: Probably, a little mark at the temples in the hairline. As I recall, it was so small, it could be hidden by the hair. It didn't have to be covered with make-up. I thought it probably a piece of bone or a piece of the bullet that caused it. Purdy: In other words, there was a little wound. Robinson: Yes. Purdy: Approximately where, which side of the forehead or part of the head was it on. Robinson: I believe it was on the right side. Purdy: On his right side? Robinson: That's an anatomical right, yes. [end of page two] Robinson Page 3 Purdy: You say it was in the forehead region up near the hair line? Robinson: Yes. Purdy: Would you say it was closer to the top of the hair? Robinson: Somewhere around the temples. Purdy: Approximately what size. Robinson: Very small, a quarter of an inch. Purdy: Quarter of an inch is all the damage. Had it been closed up by the doctors? Robinson: No, he didn't have to close it. If anything I just would have probably put a little wax on it. Purdy: Were you the one that was responsible for closing these wounds in the head? Robinson: Well, we all worked on it. Once the body was embalmed arterially and they brought a piece of heavy duty rubber, again to fill this area (area in the back of the head) I remember treating the...organs, like I said, we all tried to help one another. Purdy: O.K., you had to close the wound in the back of the head using rubber, what other work had to be done on the head? Robinson: It had to be all dried out, packed and the rubber placed in the hair and skin pulled over it as much as possible and stitched into that piece of rubber. They were afraid again of leaks, once the body is moved or shaken in the casket and carried up the Capitol steps and opened again, we had to be very careful, there would have been blood on the pillow. Purdy: Was there any other work that you had to do on the head? Robinson: I did the make up, cosmetic. Purdy: Were there any other wounds on the head other than the little one in the right temple area, and the big one in the back? Robinson: That's all. [end of page three] Robinson Page 4 Purdy: Did you have to shave the head so you could tell if there were other wounds? Robinson: No. In fact, we wanted the hair there to hide as much as possible. Putting the head into the pillow of the casket would have hidden everything. Purdy: Do you think it was possible that there was some other wound under the hair? Did you look for the other wounds? Robinson: Oh, yes we would have found that. Purdy: So you are satisfied in your professional experience that there were no other significant wound [sic] of the head? Robinson: I stayed on the left side of the body throughout the whole thing. Purdy: Did you get a good look at that wound on the right temple area? Robinson: Oh yes, I worked right over for some time. Purdy: What did you feel caused that wound. Robinson: I think either a piece of bone or a piece of the bullet. Or a very small piece of shrapnel. Conzelman: Did it pierce the entire scull [sic], could you see from the inside that it was evident from the inside scull [sic] as well as outside? Robinson: The inside of the scull [sic] was badly smashed, it could have well been a piece of bone that passed through there or [sic] Conzelman: Were the facial bones smashed too? Robinson: I don't think so. Purdy: Where did it exit? Robinson: Well it exited in many pieces. They were literally picked out, little pieces of this bullet from all over his head. Purdy: In other words, where do you feel the bullet entered and in that back major wound [sic]. What would have caused a three inch hole. [end of page four] Robinson Page 5 Robinson: I think when that bullet hit that bone, it just shattered. Purdy: Do you feel that any significant portion of the bullet after it hit the head, exited from the head, not just being picked up by the doctors? Do you feel that possibly exited, where could some if exited from the head? If any. You mentioned one possibly was that right temple. Robinson: Yes, that did go through my mind. Well they had the little pieces, They [sic] picked them out. Purdy: So you feel that's the only place that the significant size of the bullet could have exited. Robinson: It was no bullet, it was a fragment or a piece of the bone. Purdy: You would say that there is no other part of the head where that bullet would exited [sic] or a part of the bullet? Were there other little holes anywhere? Robinson: No. Purdy: What is your understanding of what happened to the bullet once it hit the head? You say the bullet went into pieces. Robinson: That's what I would say. Purdy: You mentioned earlier that the FBI agents said something to you about the bullets shattering. Robinson: Yes, I was watching all this and I asked him about it. After he discussed with me the reason why all those people had to be there, I had questions for, I wanted to know. Purdy: What did he say about the bullets shattering? Robinson: He just explained to me that on occasion that happens. The bullet will smash into a great many pieces. Purdy: You gathered from what he said that it was his impression that that is in fact what happened in this case? That the bullet did shatter/ [sic] Robinson: Yes. Purdy: From your examination, that is what you have concluded as well. Robinson: Yes, I watched them pick the little pieces out. They had something like a test tube or a little vile or something that they put the pieces in. [end of page five] Robinson Page 6 Purdy: You think they pulled out a fairly many pieces of it? Robinson: I think so. Purdy: Do you know that this man was an FBI agent, or... Robinson: He showed me some credentials, I don't know whether it was Secret Service or, to me they all belong to the same. No he was not military. There were military people there. Purdy: So he was either FBI or Secret Service or some other plain clothes type, but he show [sic] you some credentials. Robinson: Yes. I'm pretty sure he told me that was his field. Purdy: Bullistics? [sic] About the thorax area, you said that there was some irregular look... Robinson: I said it was nasty looking. Purdy: Tracheotomy. Did you ever hear any discussions that would have indicated why that was the case or what might have caused that, caused obviously the tracheotomy occurred prior to the time the body came there? Robinson: Yes, those things are done very quickly. By nature of the situation, but it was examined very carefully. The throat was. All that was removed. Purdy: Was it your understanding that that was just a tracheotomy. Or was there some other cause that may have made it ragged or something else? Robinson: There is something about the bullet exiting from there. A bullet exiting from there. I don't know whether I heard the physicians talking about it or whether I read it now. Purdy: What was your impression at the time or now thinking about it as to, if you assume a bullet or part of a bullet exited there, or something exited there. Where did that something come from? Where would it have entered from the other side? From the your [sic] examination of the body, where could it have come from? Robinson: You mean you're looking for another hole? Purdy: Another hole or some other place, either coming from the head down and out or from the back. Robinson: It might have been coming from the head and down. These are all in straight lines here coming down like that. Purdy: Was there any other mark, hole or wound in body [sic]? [end of page six] Robinson Page 7 Robinson: I saw the body turned over, it was turned over and examined on its side, rolled from each side. I saw nothing down below where the doctors had been working on the head. Purdy: Did you see anything between the head wounds and the...on the back that could have been a wound? Robinson: No. Purdy: Was there any discussion that the lungs had collapsed? Robinson: The lungs were examined very carefully by the physicians. I remember that. Purdy: Did they say anything about that? Robinson: They had lots to say about everything they did. Purdy: Am I correct that you say all this area was exposed? Robinson: Yes, this was all raised and this all examined, all cut open. Purdy: Specifically, when you say the body, you saw the back, I want to know specifically if either you know there was not a wound from the head down to the waist anywhere on the back, neck or whatever, or that the autopsy work may have either obliterated it or made it not evident to you that there was such a wound? Robinson: It might have done that, there was...but the back itself, there was no wound there, no. Purdy: Were there any wounds in the neck, the back? Robinson: Now this is where I'm hazy. I can remember the probe. The probe of all this whole area. It was about an 18 piece [sic] of metal that we used. Purdy: Do you feel they probed the head or they probed the neck? Robinson: It was at the base of the head where most of the damage was done, the things that we had to worry about. So it all runs together in my mind. Purdy: Did they probe with anything other than the 18 probe, either prior to or after the use of that probe? Did that use a shorter probe [sic] Robinson: I don't remember, I remember them probing. Purdy: What is you impression as to either how far or in what direction they probed with that probe? [end of page seven] Robinson Page 8 Purdy: Or any direction about the actual probing to indicate either the direction or the depth? Robinson: I remember they talked about it. They took notes, made notes. Conzelman: At this time, did you take any notes? Robinson: No. Purdy: Did you take any notes afterwards? Robinson: No. Purdy: Did you draw any autopsy face sheets, sketches or anything like that? Robinson: No, which is something we always did. Purdy: Why didn't you this time? Robinson: I never saw the file, like I said everything was done to protect the family as far as we were concerned. Purdy: On this probe, do you remember if the probe went all the way through wherever they probed, do you remember... Robinson: I don't recall. Purdy: Do you remember any discussion, you said you remember them talking about the probe, any discussion at all about whether there was any transcending of the body, maybe wounds transit (?) [sic] the body? Do you remember, for example, if they said that it was a bullet where a bone exited in the temple? Or at the throat? Robinson: No, but I'm sure he had it in his notes. Purdy: Colonel Hughes [sic]? Robinson: Was he the pathologist? Purdy: He was one of them, yes. Robinson: Well, maybe. Purdy: Do you remember if they took any large fragments of metal out of the body at any point? Robinson: They were all small that could be picked up with forceps. Purdy: Was there anything that looked like a piece of a bullet, were they that large? Robinson: No. [end of page eight] Robinson Page 9 Purdy: Approximately how large would you say the largest piece was that you saw? Robinson: Maybe a quarter of an inch. You see they were working around the table, and when I would get a glance as one would come by, someone would step aside. Purdy: But most of the work was done to the right of the body from behind? Robinson: Because like I said it was an... Purdy: Did you close up the head, did you help close up other parts of the body as well? Robinson: Yes I did. Purdy: The back and the front? Robinson: I did the front, yes. Purdy: Was there much that had to be closed up in the back? Robinson: I don't remember that. I don't remember anything happened to really be done when I say in the back where the body had to be turned over. Purdy: When they do the autopsy, they basically open the front up all the way and just look around and they don't have to open the back. Robinson: ...open him up in the back. Conzelman: In the region of the throat, when you were putting him back together, did you notice that any large holes other than what could have been through the autopsy? Robinson: The tracheotomy. Conzelman: Besides that? Robinson: And if it was, a bullet wound. Purdy: Could you tell any kind of a path that the wound had taken from looking in there? Robinson: No, not really. All that had been removed. Purdy: Did you notice any pieces of bone or marrow in there? Robinson: No. Purdy: In the front of the body, the whole front was open, did you notice any pieces of bone or any pieces of metal in any part of the body below the head? [end of page nine] Robinson Page 10 Robinson: No. If we had found something like that, we would have given it to them. Purdy: In your impression, where is the lowest point on the body that any metal fragments were found? Robinson: Somehow I feel like there was something found in the thorax. Purdy: Is that what they call the chest? Robinson: Yes. Purdy: You remember it to be metalic [sic] or a piece of bone? Robinson: I think they found a piece of metal, a piece of bullet. Purdy: Do you remember there being anything unusual or any larger pieces of metal turned over to anyone or turned over to the President's doctor or to the FBI agents? Robinson: No, he had his function there, but it was the pathologist who did the work. Purdy: You said that later, when you read some things about the assassination or the autopsy, you heard or read some things which struck you as incorrect. What would those things be? Robinson: The time the people moved (autopsy). [sic] The body was taken...and the body never came...lots of little things like that. Purdy: Can I ask you what your impression is of (from your work on the body [sic] the nature of the wounds or bullet which would supplement what you've already said or which would contradict what some other people might have felt? You said a bullet came at the back of the head shattered the bone. Robinson: Yes, I remember that big wound so well. and [sic] it caused us the most concern, that's why I remembered it. Purdy: So you were not surprised that such a large piece of bone would have been shattered at the point of entrance of the bullet. That did not surprise you or did that impress you [note: the words "you" and "your" appear on the same line of type and instead of a single space between them there are 12] your experience? Is that normal? Robinson: No, I don't know. I have seen them so many ways, but he was obviously hit there and that I remember thinking my God, "how could he have lived" any time at all with a wound like that. [end of page ten] Robinson Page 11 Purdy: And your feeling about the forehead, you felt then and you feel now that was caused by what? Robinson: A piece of bone or metal exiting. Purdy: Let me clear one thing about the back. To what extent if any was that back area opened up? Or was that just all in tact [sic]? Robinson: No, it was opened up. The brain had to come out [sic] Purdy: I mean below that wound? In other words the neck and back. Robinson: It was well examined I recall. Purdy: In the sense of being cut open or being looked at closely? Robinson: Yes, I mean looked at and cut. Purdy: How big a cut, Where [sic] would the cut have gone from and to? Robinson: I don't remember if it went off in many angles. It was not a nice clean cut. Purdy: So there was a cut open in the neck to look in there. Robinson: They had this all cut. Purdy: How far down on the back of the neck did they cut open? Robinson: That's what's bothering me, I can't recall whether you would say they went into the back or not. I remember seeing the back. Purdy: So you had to close up the work they did on the neck. Robinson: Yes, it seems to me that Ed did that. Purdy: So you don't recall anything [sic] Robinson: You can't have three needles in the same area, somebody is going to get it. Purdy: So you don't recall anything unusual about the closing up, you don't personally or having talked to Mr. Strogle [sic] about it? Robinson: No. Purdy: Do you remember any discussion of the possibility that there was a wound in that area? Is it your impression now that there was a wound in that area, or was the only wound present on the back of the President was [sic] in the back of his head? [end of page eleven] Robinson Page 12 Robinson: No, I wouldn't say that. Purdy: What is you [sic] sense of that? Is it your impression now that there was a wound in the back of the neck or in the upper back? Robinson: I don't remember. Vaguely in my mind that there if. I mean I have not bothered to think about [sic]. I haven't bother to read most of the junk that has come out on it. Some of it was not in good taste and I thought that they should wait a little bit longer. I remember something about it. My God isn't that awful. I just put it out of my mind as much as possible. The press was not kind. Undertaker are Texans at the time. Purdy: We can appreciate how hard it is to remember all these details. We feel that you've done very well to remember as much as you have and if there is anything you remember in the future, you can always contact us. I think that for now this is about all we need. [end of page twelve and end of document] Record Number 180-10089-10179 Agency File Number 000662 Originator-HSCA From: Robinson, Thomas Evan To: Purdy, Donald A. Date: 1/12/77 Pages: 1 Subjects: Kennedy, John, Autopsy Evidence, Medical Robinson, Thomas Evan Drawing of wounds Contents: A drawing of the rear head wound signed by Thomas Evan Robinson, dated Jan. 12, 1977 and "Received by" D. A. Purdy, Jr. and Jim Conzelman. The rear of the President's head had been drawn by free hand, appearing rather `cartoonish,' and lacking in detail. In the mid-line of the lower 45% of the head is a circle which approximates the width of the cartoonish neck. Located in the mid-line of the circle from left to right is a large "X", who's mid-point rests roughly 20% of the way up from the bottom of the circle. Located at a point that could be relative to the ear canals is a line bisecting the head and the circle. The line falls about 30% of the way down from the top of the circle and is about 50% of the diameter of the circle above the mid-point of the "X".