HSCA Record Number 180-10105-10405 Agency File Number 014469 Originator-HSCA From: Lipsey, Richard A. To: Date: 1/18/78 Pages: 12 Subjects: Lipsey, Richard A. MDW JFK autopsy Bird, Samuel [Note: Misspelled as "Byrd" is this document] medical evidence Drawing of wounds Release Date: 10/6/93 Contents: Memo from HSCA investigators Andy Purdy and Mark Flanagan on in person interview with former MDW Lt. Richard A. Lipsey. Document in full follows. NAME Richard A. Lipsey DATE 1/18/78 TIME 11:40 a.m. ADDRESS [blank] PLACE Steinberg's Sporting Goods Baton Rouge, La. Interview: The Select Committee on Assassinations interviewed Richard Lipsey because of his presence at the autopsy of John Kennedy. Since Mr. Lipsey chose to tape this interview; we also taped. This memorandum represents a summary of the tape recordings. No transcript has been made to date. Lipsey stated that he was an aide to General Wehle who was the Commanding General of the Military District of Washington, U.S. Army. This office was responsible for all the funeral arrangements of JFK. Lipsey said that he witnessed the majority of the autopsy. Lipsey began the interview by mentioning that he signed a document in his office about one week after the assassination which forbade him from revealing any information about the autopsy. He believes this had a 15-year limitation. After asking us about the validity of this agreement, we responded by saying that we wished he would respond on a voluntary basis and that it was the Committee's opinion that no harm would occur. Lipsey mentioned that these orders originated from a Colonel Holden. Lipsey agreed to coop- [end of page one] Richard A. Lipsey Interview Page 2 erate and supply any information that he could. Lipsey stated that he was born on October 7, 1939 in Selma, Alabama. He came to Washington, D.C. when he was selected as an aide to General Wehle. He said that Wehle's office would handle all ceremonial military functions in Washington. After the assassination, Lipsey said that he and Wehle met the body at Andrews Air Force Base and placed in a hearst [sic] to be transported to Bethesda Naval Hospital. Lipsey mentioned that he and Wehle then flew by helicopter to Bethesda and took JFK into the back of Bethesda. A decoy hearst [sic] had been driven to the front. After bringing the body into Bethesda, Lipsey said that Jackie Kennedy and the family entered the front of Bethesda and travelled to the "Presidential suite." Lipsey next stated that General Wehle ordered him not to leave the body for any reason. After entering the morgue and the autopsy room, Lipsey could only recall one other person besides the doctors who was present in the autopsy room. This was Lt. Samuel Byrd, head of the Old Guard. Byrd was responsible for [end of page two] Richard A. Lipsey Interview Page 3 guarding the body in any military ceremony. Lipsey next mentioned that this was the first autopsy he had ever seen and that despite the circumstance, he was able to witness the autopsy without feeling ill. He believes the autopsy lasted approximately 3-4 hours. After the autopsy, the morticians entered and Lipsey remained there while they prepared the body. During the autopsy, Lipsey said that General Wehle would occasionally enter. At one point after completion of the autopsy. Lipsey mentioned that he sent the driver of General Wehle's car to collect some clothes at the White House for JFK. In answer to a question, Lipsey stated that he does not know when the autopsy x-rays [sic] were taken. We next asked Mr. Lipsey to describe the wounds. Lipsey said that it was obvious that a bullet "entered the back of his head and exited on the right side of his head." The other bullets entered at the "lower part of his neck" in the rear; one then exited and one hit his chest cavity and travelled down into the body. Lipsey does not feel that the doctors ever located the third bullet; in otherwords, it did not exit the body. Lipsey next stated that the doctors removed all of JFK's intestines and organs and sectioned these and photo- [end of page three] Richard A. Lipsey Interview Page 4 graphed them. Lipsey says that he recalls the doctors discussing the third bullet which he believes entered low in the neck and was deflected down into the chest cavity. To the best of his recollection, Lipsey does not believe that the doctors found any "whole" bullets. He does feel that there was no question among the doctors that the bullets came from the same source. We next asked Lipsey to recap his discription [sic] of the wounds. He described these as follows: (1) one bullet entered the back of the head and exited resulting in part of the face and head being blown away; (2) another bullet entered at the top of the neck (rear) which exited in the front portion of the neck; and (3) another bullet entered at the bottom of the neck (rear) or high in the back which did not exit. Lipsey added that if you viewed JFK from the left side you couldn't notice any damage; from the right side, however, part of his head was blown away. Lipsey said he [end of page four] Richard A. Lipsey Interview Page 5 he concluded a bullet exited from the front of the neck because he saw where the doctors were working and listened to their conclusions. Lipsey also mention that the doctors dissected all of the organs in the chest regain while looking for a missle [sic]. Lipsey next stated that Sam Byrd made a tape recording of all the funeral events surrounding the assassination in which he (Byrd) participated. Lipsey felt that this recording, taped on either Tuesday of Wednesday following the assassination, may have included a commentary of the autopsy. Lipsey next said that after the morticians finished preparing the body around 3:00 or 4:00 a.m., JFK's body was taken back to the White House and laid to rest in the East Room. In response to a question, Lipsey said that he had not spoken to Sam Byrd since approximately January, 1974, then He (Lipsey) left Washington. Lipsey mentioned that he lived across from Byrd at Ft. Myer in the Officers BOQ. Lipsey also commented that Byrd is a permanent military type and that if he is still alive he's probably in the Army. Lipsey next stated that he doesn't recall the [end of page five] Richard A. Lipsey Interview Page 6 doctors having discussions with anyone else during the autopsy or any discussion concerning the nature of the autopsy to be performed. He did acknowledge, however, that even though he was in a position to hear the doctor's conversations that he didn't always pay close attention. He was only interested in certain aspects. He added that he was 12 to 15 feet from the autopsy table. Lipsey said that the doctors first examined the entire body and he believes that they discovered all of the wounds during this preliminary examination. He said that his recollection of the wounds are based on what he saw and what he heard. In reference to the front throat wound, all he saw was blood. He also added that no real entrance in the rear of the head existed; he feels that one bullet blasted away an entire portion (entrance and exit). Since he never got close to the throat wound, he could not recall the nature of this wound. Further, Lipsey does not recall any discussion of a tracheotomy incision or of the wound in the trachea being caused by anything other than a bullet. Lipsey stated that he cannot recall the doctors specifically saying that the wound in the throat was caused by a bullet but he does feel the doctors were [end of page six] Richard A. Lipsey Interview Page 7 convinced that a bullet exited from the front of the neck. Lipsey also does not recall any discussion of the nature of the bullet that caused the head wound. Lipsey said that the doctors were using the angle from the extrance [sic] in the rear of the head to the throat to look for the other bullet that entered high in the back. He said that both entrances looked the same. Lipsey mentioned that the doctors spent more time looking for the bullet that entered high in the back anything else. He recalls that he said that the bullet could have gone anywhere. The doctors were also frimly [sic] convinced that this bullet did not exit in the front of the neck. Lipsey said the doctors followed the path of the bullet for a short distance until they lost the track at which point they removed the organs in an attempt to locate it. Lipsey cannot recall if the doctors photographed the interior chest. Lipsey also does not recall when the doctors took the photographs or if they x-rayed [sic] the lower extremities. Lipsey does not recall the doctors examining the x-rays [sic] during the autopsy. Lipsey does not recall any messages coming from the Kennedy family, any calls being made from the autopsy room or elsewhere, any discussion of cardiac massage, or any discussion that the bullet in the upper back exited from the same pathway that it entered. [end of page seven] Richard A. Lipsey Page 8 Lipsey said that he was not in charge of security within the room but just had responsibility to watch the body. Lipsey does not recall anyone taking attendance in the autopsy room or any orders concerning admittance to the room. Lipsey does not believe the doctors returned any of the organs to the body. He mentioned that the brain was one of these organs. Lipsey feels that the doctors did remove some metal fragments from JFK's body but has no idea concerning where they removed them from or what their dimensions were. At this point, we had Lipsey diagram the wounds on a face sheet (see attachment). Lipsey does not recall anyone else taking notes or any other federal agents in the room. Nor does he recall anything about the reinterment of the body or even when it occurred. Lipsey says he feels he knows "for a fact" that someone shot JFK three times and that these bullets came from behind. He states he definitely remembers the doctors commenting that the bullets came from the same spot and direction and that they were "absolutely, unequivocally" convinced that he had been shot three time.s [sic] In reference to the diagrams on the face sheet, Lipsey stated that the blown [end of page eight] Richard A. Lipsey Interview Page 9 away portion represents an extrance [sic] and an exit. Lipsey also identified the entrance in the lower head as being just inside the hairline. Lipsey again reiterated that there is no question in his mind that the doctors feel there were three separate wounds and three separate bullets. Lipsey concluded by saying he has not discussed the autopsy with anyone, not even his wife. We concluded this interview at 1:15 p.m. [end of page nine] [page 10 -- Lipsey] THE FINAL PAGE OF THIS DOCUMENT IS LIPSEY'S DRAWING OF THE PRESIDENT'S WOUNDS A VERBAL DESCRIPTION OF HIS DRAWINGS FOLLOWS: The drawings are made on a form similar to the bottom portion of the autopsy report face sheet in CE 397 and shows the anterior and posterior views of a male silhouette. ANTERIOR VIEW Head Lipsey has drawn in a defect in the anatomic right temple area, extending from a point roughly the same as where the uppermost portion of the outer ear joins the head upward roughly one third of the way to the apex of the head. He has made a marginal notation which reads: "(same area) Blown away as wound #1." Throat Lipsey has drawn a dot in the mid-line of the throat at a point that should be approximately one inch above the notch in the top of the breast bone. He has made a marginal notation which reads: "EXIT point of wound #2" [Emphasis as in the original] POSTERIOR VIEW Head Lipsey has drawn a defect on the anatomic right in the area commonly known as the temple. The lowest point of the defect is just slightly higher than the same wound as he's indicated on the anterior aspect of the body, but its uppermost edge is at the same height. This wound extends backward on the head roughly one third of the way to the mid-line of the occipital bone. He has made a marginal notation which reads: "Part blown away -- #1" In the mid-line of the skull at a point which approximates the President's lower hairline, Lipsey has drawn a dot. The marginal notation for this wound reads: "entrance of bullet #2" Upper Back/Lower Neck In the mid-line of the body touching the lower line on the figure which indicates the collar area, Lipsey has drawn a dot. The marginal notation for this wound reads: "entrance -- of bullet #3" Below this notation, Lipsey has written: "(not in order)" The bottom of the page bears the date "1/18/78" and printed and signed name "Richard A. Lipsey." Beneath Lipsey's signature is: "Witnessed by: /s/ Donald A. Purdy, Jr. Baton Rouge, La. T. Mark Flanagan, Jr." This is the end of the page and the document. [Note: The HSCA's recording of this and an earlier interview on Lipsey exists, and can be obtained through the National Archives at College Park, Motion Pictures and Sound, and is audio recording 233JFK.013638. On standard audio cassettes the interview is three reels long and contains information not mentioned in this memorandum on Lipsey's interview.]